Why is it wrong to like the marker in Skyrim?

Because creating and voicing all the dialog where you have to ask around and signposting properly takes about 100x more effort than the diversity hire AAA devs can be bothered to do.

No problem, just some autists that want to impose their standard of a good game

It never bother me, tho constantly looking at a arrow that tells you were to go makes you forget how well done skyrim map is, you've got landmarks that can be used as a visual guide.

Agreed. They seemed to find a halfway point in Fallout 4 for example, where the quests are "find X thing in Y place", and Y place gets marked on your map.
You CAN complete the quest without ever turning on the quest marker, just by looking at the minimap and exploring the location once inside the building.
You can still turn on the marker for the zoomer experience but let's say the hallucigen quest, it's just "find some hallucigen can" + Hallucigen labs gets marked on your map. No marker is required to find either the lab or the can.
You could argue that the NPC should tell you how to get to the lab on foot, but I don't think it ruins immersion since you have a Pip-Boy. Why would the Sole Survivor bother hearing an explanation of how to get to X place when they can just ask for the NPC to pinpoint the location on their map.
It's literally the same as sharing location in Google Maps.

there's nothing innately wrong with markers. Not sure why that was ever an argument.
Fast travel on the other hand is generally flawed and awful.

Shithesda unironically found the answer to fast travel with the Skyrim carriages.
Then added fast travel everywhere on top of that and ruined it.

It has nothing to do with;
>hurr muh hardcore games
And everything to do with what it takes away from the game and it's affect on the genre as a whole.

The quest marker is one of the biggest issues with RPG's, especially open world games because it misses the point of making them adventures. If you're following a marker all day, you're not looking at the world and enjoying the adventure. These games shouldn't be about clearing on mark on the map and moving to the next. They SHOULD be about actual adventure and role playing mechanics.
Morrowind is an example of good map mechanics in recent times that even 'zoomers' should hopefully be knowledgeable about. The quest log tells you where to go, you just need to read the information given to you and assess it.

An example of it being done in a more tasteful and acceptable way in modern AAA games is Ghosts of Tsushima.
In it you get access to a 'wind' button. Where you press it and a guiding wind appears, pushing leaves and other loose detritus into the air and showing you the direction you should go. In this way you have access to a 'magical compass' but you can also spend more time appreciating the beautiful world around you.

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Kids don't know fast travel in Daggerfall didn't require Silt Striders.

Bethesda's organization of quests is an improvement to the genre because many old rpgs had nonsensical triggers. This means you might have to speak to a character who doesn't load until you speak to a different character telling you to speak to him. So if the player figures out
>only a great blacksmith can forge the blade
>I know
>I will go to the Great Forge, home of the greatest blacksmith
>huh, the only NPC in there gave me 1 barkstring
>I don't know what to do

talk to the King again, or a random party member, or go to the save location, or some other such shit, to hear someone exposit for retards, "hey guys! We could find a great blacksmith at the Great Forge!"

Now return to the Great Forge and there he is at the entrance, triggering a scripted conversation as soon as you enter.

Forcing quest designers to tag where stuff is mitigates such fuck-ups.

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sounds like to me the quest marker isn't innately bad, it's just quest makers are lazy and end up using it every time because they don't know how to make good quests.

because they could not code it in or the game would be hillariously short.

I just like to wander around and don't want the game constantly reminding me where I'm supposed to be going
I finished all of skyrim with the UI turned off

Its almost like they were giving you options.

Yes, but the quest marker itself tends to encourage lazy design. That's part of the reason why it's bad. Look at Skyrim. There is no expose in the quest log, no rhyme or reason why you're doing what you're doing other than, "It gives me a new sword."

It's boring.

I think there's a balance to be had.

Like I think being able to wander around a town and ask people where to go without getting an immediate answer can be useful (or optionally asking and maybe someone might mark it on your map after you do).

But after that having a persistent marker appear in the overworld can be useful so you don't start aimlessly wandering or constantly having to reopen your map to see the terrain. Video games should offer some accessibility that isn't a restriction of real-world navigation.

when you play a game thru a compass you miss out all the vistas. it's like watch subtitled movies.

its because npcs in Oblivion have schedules and move around, they aren't rooted in one spot like Morrowind.
Directions would have to have both the place and time
>you can find Surilie brothers at their vineyard during the day or in the tavern in the evening or at their house at night

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I snorted at the image.

Nah you pick breton because they have the most op racials.

It’s why I just turn off the hub when I can in games like this

Takes away responsibility of the player to read and immerse themselves. Literally just "Go here, retard, and do the thing. Do you know what that thing is? Whatever. Here's the marker. Start interacting with shit until you progress your 'quest.'"

I like getting lost in the world, so I try to not use markers when they are presented as an option. I turned off the hint system in Metroid prime 1 and 2 for this reason. Sure, I needed to turn it back on to find out where to find those god damned super bombs, but at least I had the option.

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>and voicing
Fuck voice acting. I can't fucking believe even top down RPGs like BG3 and Deadfire are doing full VA now. Why the fuck are they smoking budget on paying tons of average-to-low quality VAs instead of actual features?
As always, I blame normies, Bioware and Mass Effect. Fucking hate full VA so damn much.

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dark souls isnt open world

It’s almost like redundant and overlapping options aren’t a good idea.

It's not wrong to like it but it's a problem for people who want to be immersed in the world. People will say "just turn them off" as a defense, but the problem is that games are no longer designed to be played without quest markers. You don't have directions given to you in quests or in conversations anymore.

Ideally quests would have
1. Multiple entry points.
2. Branching paths.
3. Several means of resolving objectives.
4. A handfull of different endings which impact the game meaningfully.

But most quests are linear and self-contained.

I understand the ethos exploring blindly to discover where things are is immersive but against the cost of bad sequencing I would rather just have a pointer.

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You are correct but writing things that way wouldn't be particularly expensive or complex without full VA. You'd just have to spend time cross referencing the character schedules when writing the directions. You did it yourself fairly easily just now
Now of course I'm assuming the lack of full VA, which would be a good thing, if it does have full VA then you could get around this by locking the NPC in a specific place when the quest starts so they're always home/at the tavern etc. waiting for the player to arrive essentially.

okay but is fallout 4 or skyrim se better for coom modding

Video games are now a majority hobby for most developing children and young teens
They should encourage strong thinking skills and problem solving
Instead they do the opposite and teach you not to think about anything at all
It's a wasted opportunity, raising people dependant on handouts and handholding instead of independant people who can think for themselves

Because the entire game is designed around it. Don't get me wrong, it's incredibly useful to know the exact entrance to a dungeon you'd like to enter, but for a game based entirely around exploration, it sure feels like most of the time you've got your eyes glued to the top part of the screen to be going in the right direction at all times.

I've actually been thinking of making a mod for Skyrim using that new AI generated voiceline thing and giving the option to ask each questgiver in the game for directions, and use the AI to say "Head north on the road until you see the sign for Bleak Falls Barrow. Then just look up the mountain and see the arches, you can't miss them." Though somebody's probably already done it now that I think about it

Not that much in the grand scheme of things to pay a 150 people to voce act a few lines.

Skyrim by far, it has more mods and you can actually mod NPCs to not look plastic.
I don't know what it is, but F4 is built poorly in a weird way in that even with the coomerest mods around for the bodies, they always still look too smooth and rubbery, it's fucking awful. Meanwhile a good texture mod for Skyrim like Mature skin will immediately give your NPCs a much better look.

I assume you meant paying a few people 150 bucks an hour to voice act "a few" lines. Because the idea you'd pay 150 voice actors for one game is not only ludicrous in the amount of VAs needed but also absurdly expensive.

in skyrim it's overdone, but I feel oblivion had the right amount of it, especially with mods that force you to get close enough to an area before the marker spawns, or that some NPC "tells you" the direction

>advances at a perfect 0 degree bearing to the quest marker at all times

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After playing Outward for 200 hours I can safely say there's nothing wrong with quest markers.

Why would anyonecare about being considered a hard core gamer?
It isn't a competition.
It is like bragging you are a hard core movie watcher.

There are legit fans of survival mechanics and item degradation.
Tedium is a selling point to some believe it or not.

>caring about the ""agency"" of the developers and not the actual player
Dear god, man. Do you ever think about the words you type?

Why stop there? Why not make the game think for you in other ways? Why not just have the game play itself while you watch?

Now that you have outlined the template consider man hours per quest.
Your example greatly reduces the amount of available quests. Whether you have one year or a hundred your method will reduce the available number.

Now consider from the players end.
Will they wish to replay just to see the other possibilities.
What percent will be one and done regardless?
Your method used sparingly is fine.
If it is the word of god template for every quest you are wsdting valuable dev time.

>go into building while marker active from across map
>leave through different door
>marker tells you to go back in
what did Todd mean by this?

It's a leading question that's supposed to make Dab Forums mad.

dark soul is not an open world, it's more a metroidvania.

Go back in the shed and loot every wardrobe, goyim.

Its a get out of jail free card for lazy level design. dont need to make an organic interesting world if you just use magic quest markers in the characters brain.

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>the year is 2030
>all games autoplay themselves from opening scene to credits
Imagine if WE played the games instead
>You'd get so fucking tired of that really quickly.

shitty rebutal. Game must be designed with the idea that player might play without the markers, otherwise some part are unplayable.
I think it's a problem of immersion you're less immersed, your brain less stimulated when you just have to follow a marker. It's a bit like quest in MMO where you don't even read the text anymore and the game become some kind of clicking fest you play to pass time.
The player feel smart when you let him find stuff himself, the world feel more alive when NPC can direct you or when there's enough cue in the landscape to guide you. An extreme exemple of that would be kingdom come where you don't even appear on the minimap, meaning you have to use the landmark and stuff to guide yourself. You're way more attentive to what happen around and you have a better understanding of your environment. Sure you will get lost two or three time, I could even argue being lost is funny but I would understand that it's clearly not for everyone.
Anyway, an universal argument about this would be that the designers are forced to think more when they design their quest/environment, they don't have to be imaginative. It's a win for everyone to have more detailed and alive environment. Quest marker is really a lazy way to guide player and I think you loose a lot of quality when you start to rely on these mechanics (like eagle vision) instead of having them as a QOL feature.
Ideally, quest markers should be optionnal and not the other way around.

this is not joke the most autistic thing I ever see Dab Forumsirgins seethe about, how are you different from the proud of its power lucario autist?

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>Why not just have the game play itself while you watch?

That's hot.

>Game must be designed with the idea that player might play without the markers, otherwise some part are unplayable.
its exactly what i fucking said
please learn how to read
you can beat the entire fo4 game without ever turning on a quest marker and just using your map.

Because it encourages lazy world design. When they give you directions like in Morrowind it requires them to fill the whole world with landmarks so that the directions make sense. With quest markers like in the later games it's much easier for them to get away with just making empty landscapes.

No, that was my point. You can't. It's a game designed around map markers. I didn't play the game in a long time, but finding a random grotto in the glowing sea for the main quest is more than a chore without direction.

the vigilant mod did this in plenty of its questlines, and honeslty, while it sounds neat on the surface, it gets tedious in practice, to the point that you feel you are just playing duck duck goose whith a bunch of mannequins

It's only right if your character has extreme psychic abilities, otherwise the devs should... ummmm.... WRITE A FUCKING STORY THAT MAKES SENSE AND GIVE CLUES AND IN GAME REFERENCES YOU CAN FOLLOW AND DECIPHER ON YOUR OWN.

>not using your superior dragon dna traits to navigate yourself using the poles as a magnetic compass
ngmi

Why don't they have a program which perfectly generates a wide variety of voices from text yet?
Seriously, that should be something in development, it would make so much possible while lowering the cost of production greatly.

Real VA's could be part of the industry still, but for the main of games it could fill the void and make worlds much much better and more alive.

your method doesn't follow any logic and actually indicates that not only you are never going to make it, but that you never could make it to begin with.

I actually think people wouldn't mind quest markers in TES as much if there was some in-game lore to them. Like make a spell that lets you see them temporarily or something. Similar how Morrowind had lore-friendly fast travel systems and it was miles better than how the later games handled it.
As for Fallout I think fast travel could be fixed by making it the same as how travelling on the world map was in 1/2

Should be like in Morrowind. You get journal entries telling you the way to things then you go and figure it out.

>Like make a spell that lets you see them temporarily or something
you mean like clairvoyance?

Quick reminder that elven supremacy is the only truth

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The khajit rule the sands, s’borro.

And what you are describing is a slippery slope to movie games. Remove the game parts so that you can see all the shit all those poor devs worked so hard on. They should spend more shit on things like this instead of 1000s of boring quests

You honestly think this is the reason why people like Dark Souls?

Right, that's pretty much what I meant lol. There should be reason for them, whether it be a character trait or spell... but i would also like in game references and clues too.
I killed so many of them... One of my characters is an entity older than the universe or anu and padamy, a being from a separate higher existence. Point is I would have loved a quest allowing you to end the thalmor permanently. The Summerset Isles mod allows you to have some fun with them, but, I want total annihilation of those wretched fools. They deserve to be put in their place, hard.

I believe he means it is one facet of many which makes the game great, at least from his own perspective. That's just my interpretation though.

What do you think Let's Plays are?

>complains about map markers
>but is also a ADHD zoomer who can't explore the bottom quater tenth of the map without suffering from dopamine withdrawals
You're literally the reason why we have map markers in games lmao.

Oh yeah, that's right, nobody in the irradiated town in the middle of the crater could give you some direction or have heard about the guy you're looking for. You know, instead of being NPCs that don't do anything or have anything to say and make of the location a terrible disappointement when you discover it by accident.
Exploration isn't pushing all the bricks in the wall hoping to find a secret passage.

I only hate this marker when developers forsake the npc dialogue, roads, signs, context clues, et cetera. I should be able to figure out how to get there without it. It's disappointing knowing they simply don't care.

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Actually laughing at your post.
The people in the crater give you directions to where Virgil is. You ask the mother there and she directs you to his cave.
And where are they located? In the crater clearly visible on your pipboy map.

No, but if markers and leading you by the hand through a game were essential elements then the popularity of Dark Souls would be an outlier

literally this, preference

old school gamers will cry because they feel like new games don't force you to "pay your dues", that's the impression i get at least

personally i viewed it as a QoL improvement, and choose to either walk the long way and take in the scenery or teleport depending on my mood

Legitimately who does red the first playthrough? Are people really that stupid they can't follow the roads and signs? Red is less practical overall because you'll keep getting stuck on fucking mountains and shit.

Dark Souls doesn't have an open world, and the design is so tight and focused that you learn pathing the first time you run through an area--each area is clearly delineated from the others.

Skyrim needs a map, Dark Souls is like navigating a local neighborhood.

One of the first quests you can get in Whiterun sends you to that mountain in the path. You'll likely be familiar with it and more likely to take the straight line path. Also most of whiterun is open plain making it much more likely to traverse in a linear fashion.

>Just go south-west lmao
Hope nobody has to rely on your directions in their life. You're a retard if you think this isn't lazy and not designed to be found without a marker.

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meant for (you)

Because it removes the need for the player to actually observe and interact with the world. You could play most modern rpgs without reading a single line of dialogue and just following the marker. KCD hardcore mode handled markers the best imo, no marker until you're close to your target so you can pinpoint it's location.

not him but it's the fact there is something missing. if there are no in game clues or references to follow and you are forced to use the "psychic" quest marker or be lost then that is a problem.
what you said about fast travel and teleportation, if they exist there should be prerequisites or penalties for using them
>fast travel on foot
random encounters or fatigue
>teleport
must learn a spell and have the proper intelligence to learn said spell
>transportation via carriage or boat etc.
you must have coin

you get the idea
point being so much of this is missing altogether or missing details that make sense

this holy shit. Even the markers sometimes buggy

>just go to the location I mark on your map after you ask where it is
You can't even respond to a post properly. I'm not surprised a Bethesda game is too high IQ for you.
What's your image proving? Navigation is harder at night? Woah, crazy.

Many people do actually.
Let's pose question a bit differently: WHY would you go red or blue route? In real life you'd go blue because you have limited time to get from place to place; because you are afraid of wildlife/bandits that might appear in wilderness; because you are simply afraid of getting lost.
In game, only second point bears some importance, because if it wasn't Skyrim/Oblivion, there would be a chance of walking into some high-level mob that would wipe floor with you. You can't get lost because forests aren't as expansive or thick. You always have a map and more importantly than even quest marker, you are always perfectly aware of where you are on this particular map.
So there's little point in detour if going in straight line is faster way to next objective. Not to mention that for most TES players randomly stumbling upon a new location to clear out is main selling point, and most locations are NOT close to roads.

Rather than bitching about quest markers for nth time, I think people should bitch about fact that grand majority of characters in RPGs have absolute spatial awareness and can easily tell their location even when standing in the middle of nowhere with no landmarks to help them.

The quest marker isn't the problem. The game being designed around using the quest marker is the problem.

Epiphany moment here but, it’s fine to like it. There’s no interesting content to discover off the beaten path anyway so fuck it might as well get to where you’re going.

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its ok you still have cod. leave rpgs to people who like them.

This but also
>We don't want for our copy pasted quests to be missed out by players

No, I checked the conversation, she only tell it's south west. They didn't even make the effort of telling "oh yeah let me add it on your map" excuses. You just proved my point by telling that it was made with a marker in mind anyway.
My screen just show that findind a slit in the rocks in the glowing sea without markers is a pain. Without any indication of distance or landmark, you just have to walk randomly and hope to fall on it. And if you miss it, you can continue to criss cross 3km too far. Maybe you'll realize you missed it when you hit the map border.
>But it's not lazy design! You're just a zoomer with adhd that can focus lmao!!!!

>I'm not a zoomed with adhd!
This post, nor your replies in this thread do much to help this defence.
>it's only south west!?
How can you miss it then? You're in the most southwestern bit lol

You have the option to turn off markers. Also no one is forcing you to use fast travel. I see no issue.

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the problem is it works too well. to the point I'm staring at it more than looking at the game for some time.

the issue is without the markers there are no clues or indication of where you should be going in most cases.

Skyrim is a shit rpg but its fun as hell so i don't care bout the marker at all. All i want to to go to the next dungeon so i can loot and kill shit the marker gives me an instant direction to it.

>You have the option to turn off markers
In many gaymes you can't and if you pretend they don't exist, game gives you no directions where to go and what to do.
>Also no one is forcing you to use fast travel. I see no issue.
Yea because walking for 15 minutes just to talk with NPC and walk 15 back is great game design. Many open world games are so fucking empty and don't even pretend exploration is worth a damn.

dragon quest 11 did it best, the marker usually only points at the quest giver, so you can ask again more info on the quest to do by yourself

Typically if a quest giver does not tell you were to complete the quest, you can safely assume that the quest zone is within a kilometer radius of the NPC's location.

beside the issues of managing 150 people for one dub, the problem is that any minute change to the script requires to schedule another session with the vas, taking more and more money

You tell me? How can I miss a slit in the rock without anything but a vague instruction of being told it's south west and rely on the game telling me I'm not allowed to go any further if I go too far?
But you've made up your mind. You decided that Fallout 4 was designed to be played without markers. Good for you.

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Every faggot I know who plays Dark Souls has the game on one monitor and the wiki or a walkthrough on another.

>He only knows faggots
This is You problem.

>Skyrim carriages
Skyrim carriages are too cheap to not be extremely abusable.

Writing quests that have no marker and thus need environmental context and clues is a good thing as it immerses you into the world and also requires devs make a visually identifiable world on a regular basis.

Writing quests that all turn into watching and following the map marker 80% of the time is a bad thing because it turns adventures into games of fetch and allows a dev to put zero thought into how the environment might have unique features or landmarks to guide the player- such as Morrowind's white guar.

Exactly. Comparing Skyrim to Morrowind and why sometimes more QoL in the form of fast travel put of your map is bad is because in Morrowind, odds are you learned to teleport or figured out where the boats and silt striders will take you. In Skyrim, you probably took a carriage one if at all to get to whatever city with quests you wanted to do first at the start.

>just search a 2 radian kilometer area bro
that is not helpful enough though lmao
thanks for the laugh but... i mean... it's close to impossible to find some of these places and asking or checking your journal doesn't help, so you have to turn quest markers back on
it shouldn't be this way aaa

You're right, but you're also delusional if you think the average Souls fan isn't like this

But Bleak Falls Barrow has a road leading to it. If I follow the road to Markarth, it would be the blue path.

This is why games built around questmarkers are the problem rather than the marker itself. If your quest can only be found and completed because a marker guided you through the dungeon and to some random shelf in a forgettable room to pick up an equally random and forgettable item then that's a game design issue. People missed the Dwemer puzzle box despite knowing they were in the correct room because it was one of the first quests but from there on out, you generally don't miss quest items because you know what the game expects of you.

From a lorelet like me i think games like skyrim wants you to explore the stories more than playing as the character, also i think the problem is more of that we don't get too much information and you could say they sacrifice that by giving you that quest marker, so in short its a mix of that and the being a simply too lazy to make a creative/variant quests. Moreover i think skyrim is kinda like cyberpunk in a way that they tried to be anything so they need to balance things out and ends up compromising a lot of shit also, exploring skyrim gets me bored quickly because most of the shit you do are underground.

When someone tells me about "average" someone I will remind him.
youtube.com/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

Fuck off zoomer.

It would get old in Skyrim, because the game isn't designed around not having a compass with constant waypoint markers. People are saying that not having them should be the standard, while not acknowledging that it takes actual effort on the developer's part to lead players in the right direction. A game like VTMB worked without quest markers because it was smaller and tightly designed around distinct hubs and landmarks to work with, and you were physically told all that you needed to know to go exploring and find something.

Playing a game like Skyrim with waypoints turned off adds nothing to the experience but a load of extra time-wasting guess-work as you poke around an entire town or ten square miles of identical country-side hoping to find the one NPC you're expected to talk to. There's nothing else in-game to lead you the right way, because quests are designed around the waypoint system.

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The marker in of itself isn't a problem, the real problem is since devs know the player can just follow a braindead marker everywhere on the map they don't have to put care and time into the game world visually with interesting landmarks and sights to see. This has a butterfly effect to all aspects of the games design that ends up with a much more generic and boring product.

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It's like the difference between solving a puzzle and reading a mystery book. They both have a solution to be found, but while the puzzle requires thinking and effort on your part, the book will provide you with the necessary clues and ultimate solution whether you're critically engaged with it or not.

A journal/quest log with highlighted or underscored text that give directions is about where I draw the line. Although I will accept compass with markers for games with high mobility or cars n shieeet.

It's mandatory because every single location looks the same with different levels of snow so it would be impossible to find it